VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch.13.3.4] [Eva Kiss]

Gicoo said:

Her proactive behaviour when she seeks out Jeremy/Ian on her own. Unlike Holly, who is pushed to every men she should fuck.

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That's not what i asked about. Who is to say that Jeremy isn't offering Alison drugs, and that Alison isn't taking them because she feels pressurized to keep Jeremy's interest? Maybe Ian's remarks are also supposed to highlight that her behavior is not "normal" for her?

Bleaching your hair and nipple piercings are a significantly milder form of corruption and manipulation (if at all) than doing a glory hole.

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The game literally refers to Alison who goes this route as a bimbo. This is, if anything, the extreme form of "corruption" in these games, that goes beyond basic "slutty" behavior of sucking a few cocks.

bonerland said:

Besides the lack of any evidence to say otherwise?

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The lack of any evidence, and how it undermines these theories when they concern Ivy instead of another character is precisely the point.

Ian also hadn't seen Alison in years and hadn't been in the bedroom with her on that particular path either, so that's hardly concrete.

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Lena potentially never seen Holly fuck, period, and yet her remark is taken as a gospel. As if she is suddenly an expert on both Holly's sex life *and* drugs, when she has potentially never ever taken any herself.

And it's not zero info, Ivy does have drugs and pushes them onto Lena twice

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To be exact, she offers drugs to Lena once. If Lena turns down the offer Ivy herself concludes the next time Lena doesn't want any, and you have to make an active choice there to get drugs from her.

Given this, the presumption that Ivy is drugging Holly against Holly's consent is not just far-reaching but actively ignoring/contradicting what the game actually shows us, regarding Ivy and drugs.

BlandChili said:

With a game full of hot women in skimpy clothing it does

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whatever it is just a little details.

Hungover00 said:

Some people play the cuck path, and think Axel is a good partner. There's no accounting for taste.

And it's kind of on the players if they let Holly be defiled/sluttified. There's plenty of chances to not let that happen (though once it starts, it doesn't look likely to stop).

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You are missing the point of my post,people in this thread never cared about different paths while talking SHIT about Jeremy,Stan,Robert,Seymour,etc(basically all the male characters not named Ian).
But somehow Ivy gets a pass.
Somehow Ivy gets the benefit of doubt.
Somehow Ivy gets no heat for her crimes.
Thats the point of my posts.

ffive said:

The lack of any evidence, and how it undermines these theories when they concern Ivy instead of another character is precisely the point.


Lena potentially never seen Holly fuck, period, and yet her remark is taken as a gospel. As if she is suddenly an expert on both Holly's sex life *and* drugs, when she has potentially never ever taken any herself.


To be exact, she offers drugs to Lena once. If Lena turns down the offer Ivy herself concludes the next time Lena doesn't want any, and you have to make an active choice there to get drugs from her.

Given this, the presumption that Ivy is drugging Holly against Holly's consent is not just far-reaching but actively ignoring/contradicting what the game actually shows us, regarding Ivy and drugs.

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Lena is able to walk in on Holly In flagrante delicto a few times before that point in the game, and also notes how Holly is purposefully trying to be like Ivy.

But there's not a lack of evidence in Ivy's case. Hard evidence sure, but to completely dismiss it out of hand as preposterous (especially since that was a big plot line in EK's previous game) is just denial.

bonerland said:

But there's not a lack of evidence in Ivy's case. Hard evidence sure, but to completely dismiss it out of hand as preposterous (especially since that was a big plot line in EK's previous game) is just denial.

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But like i said, the actual evidence in the game is that Ivy will offer people drugs openly and that she will respect the other person's choice on whether they want to take them. If there's any denial to speak of, it's ignoring these facts in favor of theory that Ivy is pressuring Holly or otherwise drugging her without Holly's consent. Even though this is opposite to what we get to see.

ffive said:

To be exact, she offers drugs to Lena once. If Lena turns down the offer Ivy herself concludes the next time Lena doesn't want any, and you have to make an active choice there to get drugs from her.

Given this, the presumption that Ivy is drugging Holly against Holly's consent is not just far-reaching but actively ignoring/contradicting what the game actually shows us, regarding Ivy and drugs.

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Though that ignores that Ivy/Lena and Ivy/Holly's relationship is very different. Lena is her best friend, confident already and can (usually) manage her own boundaries, so aggressively pressuring her won't work as well. Though she does try and push Lena into situations without checking in first, like setting up that first shoot, or hides/neglects to mention things, such as she was at Axel's place, she asked Mark to send her pics/vids of Holly, and that she blocked Lena out of Holly's graduation, so it could be presented as a fait accompli. Lena is more of an equal to Ivy (though she may also harbour envy and want to sully her), so she treats her as one.

Holly has never been treated like Ivy's equal by Ivy. She is under her, under her tutelage and under her snatch and under her control. So, while we don't know if Ivy would try and force drugs on Holly, it actually wouldn't necessarily be contradicting what we have seen, as their dynamic is different. I honestly don't know if she would sneak drugs into Holly's drink, or if she'd just use her dominant position in the relationship to pressure Holly to take drugs, but neither would completely surprise me. She'd just find an excuse afterwards if Holly or Lena was upset, rationalising her behaviour and taking no accountability.

But that's part of the character Ivy's charm, she's going around, making moves (many of them secretive), and always has a smoke screen up so you never really know if any action is earnest or is part of a greater manipulation.

With Lena, Ivy needs to play a slow game of corruption. With Holly, there is no such restriction (if Lena doesn't protect her). Ivy loves pulling strings.

Im going to say it i dont give a fuck,Holly not being high in that scene would be terrible writing by Evakiss.
Holly THE SAINT Watson being high on penis like people are saying is GGGB bullshit,horrendous outcome.

ffive said:

To be exact, she offers drugs to Lena once. If Lena turns down the offer Ivy herself concludes the next time Lena doesn't want any, and you have to make an active choice there to get drugs from her.

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An interesting part to this is that Ivy brings Lena to the washroom the second time even if Lena refused the first. She creates an opportunity for Lena to change her mind.

I feel like Ivy has created this part time job for herself to corrupt Lena, but approaches it like a wave slowly eating away at a cliff. Adds pressure, takes it away, comes at her from a different angle and adds pressure again. Patient and slowly, but always trying to make Lena more and more like her, so Lena's natural advantages over Ivy are washed away, and Ivy can finally be triumphant.

But that's mixed in with the admiration and long standing friendship.

At least that's my working theory.

Hungover00 said:

Though that ignores that Ivy/Lena and Ivy/Holly's relationship is very different. Lena is her best friend, confident already and can (usually) manage her own boundaries, so aggressively pressuring her won't work as well. Though she does try and push Lena into situations without checking in first, like setting up that first shoot, or hides/neglects to mention things, such as she was at Axel's place, she asked Mark to send her pics/vids of Holly, and that she blocked Lena out of Holly's graduation, so it could be presented as a fait accompli. Lena is more of an equal to Ivy (though she may also harbour envy and want to sully her), so she treats her as one.

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I think that, given as you note yourself, Ivy doesn't actually have problem with trying to push boundaries with Lena, or do things behind Lena's back, the idea that she treats Lena and Holly differently is, well, just another presumption the game itself doesn't really support. Wouldn't it be more logical to take things at face value, and conclude that there's things Ivy thinks are okay to do (like fucking a guy she knows Lena is interested in, or making a move on a girl she's interested in) and there's things Ivy thinks aren't okay, like drugging people against their consent?

Seriously, it kind of boggles the mind why exactly people believe Ivy is the sort of a person who'd drug and rape someone while what, pretending to be their friend? It's funny that for all the talk about "double standards that give women a pass" she seems to be the only person who get smeared with this kind of talk.

Meantime, fucking Arthur: Hello, Lena
*audience: wild cheers*

double standards, indeed.

ffive said:

I think that, given as you note yourself, Ivy doesn't actually have problem with trying to push boundaries with Lena, or do things behind Lena's back, the idea that she treats Lena and Holly differently is, well, just another presumption the game itself doesn't really support. Wouldn't it be more logical to take things at face value, and conclude that there's things Ivy thinks are okay to do (like fucking a guy she knows Lena is interested in, or making a move on a girl she's interested in) and there's things Ivy thinks aren't okay, like drugging people against their consent?

Seriously, it kind of boggles the mind why exactly people believe Ivy is the sort of a person who'd drug and rape someone while what, pretending to be their friend? It's funny that for all the talk about "double standards that give women a pass" she seems to be the only person who get smeared with this kind of talk.

Meantime, fucking Arthur: Hello, Lena
*audience: wild cheers*

double standards, indeed.

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Fucking Arthur, indeed. Western type of an ugly bastard.

Geigi said:

Fucking Arthur, indeed. Western type of an ugly bastard.

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The one way for me to get behind the "Ivy is a drugging rapist" theory is if she picks Arthur to be on the receiving end.

ffive said:

I think that, given as you note yourself, Ivy doesn't actually have problem with trying to push boundaries with Lena, or do things behind Lena's back, the idea that she treats Lena and Holly differently is, well, just another presumption the game itself doesn't really support. Wouldn't it be more logical to take things at face value, and conclude that there's things Ivy thinks are okay to do (like fucking a guy she knows Lena is interested in, or making a move on a girl she's interested in) and there's things Ivy thinks aren't okay, like drugging people against their consent?

Seriously, it kind of boggles the mind why exactly people believe Ivy is the sort of a person who'd drug and rape someone while what, pretending to be their friend? It's funny that for all the talk about "double standards that give women a pass" she seems to be the only person who get smeared with this kind of talk.

Meantime, fucking Arthur: Hello, Lena
*audience: wild cheers*

double standards, indeed.

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Well, I think you may have grouped me with some others that I don't share the same views of. Not an Arthur fan, firstly.

Primarily the reason not to take Ivy at face value is the game's writing suggests she's always on the make. She pumps Ian for information about Cindy and the group after the gym, but then says she's just trying to get to know him better. And there's many other moments too, of her going behind peoples backs or around their wishes to get what she wants (she bad mouths Minerva, while taking her money, everything about the Axel shoot is sus, Lena can try and stake a claim on Mark and Ivy ignores it and does what she wants). I don't think the game has really indicated that Ivy has a code of beliefs, more just an assortment of best practices that can be ignored when they become inconvenient.

I think it is probable that Ivy got Holly to take drugs before the glory hole, but whether that was coming from 'she'll feel more comfortable and let loose better if Holly's on Molly' or if it was more of 'if I get her high I can surprise her and push her past her old boundaries,' I don't know.

And as I've said, it's part of what makes Ivy such a compelling character for the story. I don't think Ivy respects mainstream values and definitions of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. I think it's likely that her ego is so strong she can justify any behaviour because she would enjoy that, so so should they. She's almost like a sociopathic prophet of sluttyness, a Nietzschean Uber-Slut that everyone should emulate. Like don't you think Seymour and Ivy would vibe like hell? (but probably hate each other a bit too)

i didn't research the part where is drug.I m not huge fan of drug corruption in games

dolfe67 said:

Don't mix up clubs with brothels

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Plenty of girls into clubbing/raving dress the exact same

Eleanorduval said:

i didn't research the part where is drug.I m not huge fan of drug corruption in games

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You really don't need to research anything about the game unless you're on your 4+ playthrough. Just have fun, make the choices you want the characters to make, and let the story unfold.

Save before each choice would also be my recommendation, but likely others would disagree. If the characters seem tense, be tense yourself, there are quick time choices.

Drugs should be avoidable.

ffive said:

The one way for me to get behind the "Ivy is a drugging rapist" theory is if she picks Arthur to be on the receiving end.

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'The dildo of consequences rarely comes lubed!'

(always fun debating with you. You make excellent points, I think we just value the evidence differently.)

Xupuzulla said:

Im going to say it i dont give a fuck,Holly not being high in that scene would be terrible writing by Evakiss.
Holly THE SAINT Watson being high on penis like people are saying is GGGB bullshit,horrendous outcome.

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I think it's obvious she is high, Lena comments on it, why add those comments if it's not going anywhere. The question to me isn't is she high, it's did she know what was going to happen when she was sober, was she drugged, or did she willingly take hard drugs and thing escalated.

Hungover00 said:

You really don't need to research anything about the game unless you're on your 4+ playthrough. Just have fun, make the choices you want the characters to make, and let the story unfold.

Save before each choice would also be my recommendation, but likely others would disagree. If the characters seem tense, be tense yourself, there are quick time choices.

Drugs should be avoidable.

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i don't understand the last part,ivy will dug holly whatever u do? i try not take games too serious,not identify my self to the character. If u see on most threads there is fight,it is due to extreme addictation

Eleanorduval said:

i didn't research the part where is drug.I m not huge fan of drug corruption in games

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There isn't drugs. People are assuming that Holly was drugged, when there isn't really proof of it at this moment. Lena thinks Holly looks out of it, but that could be any number of things outside of drugs. And like ffive has been argueing, even if there are drugs involved, there is no proof that Holly didn't take them willingly.

The real double standard in this discussion is considering promiscuity corruption, but only if we are talking about a female character. If it's a male character, then he's a chad. Just imagine an alternative story where Jeremy is Stan's friend and he makes an effort to try to make Stan stop being a virgin. He encourages him to party, have some drinks, maybe some drugs. He wingmans him so he gets some action with some random girls but always insisting on no catching feelings and just have casual sex. And Stan ends up fucking several girls including some thereesomes with Jeremy and let's say being in the other side of Holly's glory hole. Most people would be calling Jeremy the best friend ever and Stan a fucking chad.

And this is not a defense of Ivy. I see her as a manipulative bitch who plays with people for her own advantage and amusement. But she really thinks her way of life and seeing things is the right one, she doesn't see as corrupting getting Lena and Holly to be more like her.